Jonathan has no interest in APC controversy – Ben Obi
Senator Ben Obi is best known as one of the people who plotted the crash of the Third Term project of the Olusegun Obasanjo administration in 2006. Today, he works with President Goodluck Jonathan as Adviser on Inter-Party Relations. When Deputy Editor, SAM AKPE, spent an hour with him few days ago, he opened up on certain national issues including the chances of Jonathan’s Presidency in 2015. Excerpts…
What convinced you to accept appointment as Presidential Adviser on Inter-Party Relations?
Well, I think when a man sets out in Nigeria of today and says he wants to run a transformation agenda, in my experience and knowledge of this country, you would have no alternative but to look further to the prospects of a transformed nation. That was what I looked at and said, look, let us give President Goodluck Jonathan an opportunity to serve this country with this agenda of his. I thought there was need to support that agenda and also play a role. When I was invited on board and I had a couple of sessions with him, he was quite convinced that with transformation, a lot of things could be achieved. And for me, we needed to get out of the high-handedness that we experienced in the past administrations since the inception of our democratic experience. I found in him somebody who was willing to understand people’s views, listen to opinions and consult. So, when I found these qualities in the man, I didn’t have any option when he called on me to come on board.
What has happened so far; would you say your expectations have been met?
Let me tell you something, and listen to me very carefully. There are certain things that I expect of a Nigerian President. And when I find those things, it gives me hope that a lot can be achieved. In 2011, the President made an announcement in the course of his campaign and said to all Nigerians, particularly, the managers of his campaign, that nobody should rig elections for him, and that no Nigerian blood is worth a spill for his Presidency. And that if they (PDP) were defeated, he would go back to Otuoke, his village. For me, that was a very fundamental statement, coming from a serving President preparing to face an election; an election that people were saying was almost like 50-50 at that time. People thought (Muhammadu) Buhari was coming with a bang. That was the political situation at the time. What happened in 2011 is now history. For the first time, both the international and local observers came out and hailed the government for conducting free and transparent elections. So, you see, the conduct of credible elections by this President set the pace for a new democratic space. Now, I tell you again, when we were going to have the Edo State election, I did a memo to Mr. President that it was time to go to Edo State and conduct a sensitisation workshop for all the political parties on free and fair elections. He approved it. He told me to go. I went. All the candidates appeared at the workshop, including the governor, Adams Oshiomhole. It was a full house. I made sure I chose credible Nigerians, who, when they talk about transparent elections, the candidates would believe. Fortunately, I know most of the leaders in the opposition. I invited them. The chairmen and candidates also came. Chief Bisi Akande, the chairman of ACN (Action Congress of Nigeria) could not catch a flight because it was soon after the June 2 air crash. At the airport, they said he must produce an identity card. The man did not have one on him. But he was calling frantically from the airport that he was trying everything to board a flight to be able to attend the event. That shows how important the workshop was to a man like that. At the end of the workshop, I came back and I did a memo. He responded by congratulating me for conducting the workshop and told me that he was in full support of what I did. But what was striking was that he went on campaign for the Peoples Democratic Party) PDP candidate and spent only three minutes on the campaign podium, in Benin. And his message was clear: one man one vote, one woman one vote, one governor one vote, one youth one vote. IG, I want free, credible and transparent election. Minister of Defence, Chief of Army Staff, INEC, the same thing. And he stepped down from the podium. When the result came out, he was the first person to congratulate Oshiomhole, the candidate of ACN, who won. When it was the turn of Ondo State, he sent for me. He said:that thing you did in Benin, go now to Ondo and do the same thing. The rest is history. He was also the first person to congratulate Governor Olusegun Mimiko of Labour Party (LP). We have not seen any election in this country before since my participation in politics in 1978, that people go to vote and their votes counted. This is a major achievement. That is transformation.
Can you pin-point a specific transformation success that has come with the election victory?
I want to take you to the aviation sector. Despite that we had a major crash last year, look at the transformation going on in our airports; as if we never had a Minister of Aviation in the last 13 years. You ask yourself: where are all of these coming from? Before September or October last year, it was impossible; people stopped travelling on the Enugu-Onitsha Road because that road was condemned. We resorted to using the old road. Within three months, as a result of the standing order by the President, Enugu-Onitsha Road became usable. Enugu-Port Harcourt Road became usable. You ask yourself: so, we have to wait until the President says ‘do this’ for people to do their jobs? So I’m even saying to him: look, if you know that this is what you have to do for people to do their jobs, do it. Call all these ministers and tell them: look, I want this thing delivered within this period. It is only one side of the road that has been fixed; the other is still under construction. But then, people now travel with relief. I just want the President to pay attention to the power sector. Once we can raise power generation to a minimum of 8,000 megawatts, get our factories and industries back to life so as to create employment – so that we can get our thousands of youths into employment, I’m sure people will understand what transformation is about.
You described the last election as credible; but in his book, ‘The Accidental Public Servant’, former FCT Minister, Nasir el-Rufai, comes close to describing it as the most rigged election in Nigeria. What do you make of that?
I don’t know where el-Rufai is coming from. These were the people who promoted Third Term agenda in this country. They were the ones that should actually be held responsible for almost scuttling the democratic experiment of this country. He is talking clearly as somebody who has a score to settle. He is not better placed than people who came to observe elections in this country. You were here yourself; you don’t need anybody to tell you whether the election was free and fair or not. So, it’s not el-Rufai who will come and tell us which election is free and which is not. Look, I have been very careful not to drag myself into the issue of el-Rufai until the appropriate time. I know what transpired in the Obasanjo administration. So, at the appropriate time, we will delve into that.
To the contrary, el-Rufai says he is one of the messiahs of the country by making sure Third Term project failed.
Well, without sounding big-headed and boisterous, I can say that I know how the third term project was scuttled, from the very beginning to the end. If anybody can speak on that project, I think I am in a position to speak authoritatively on it, and nobody will question whatever I say on that matter. So, el-Rufai should think properly and re-appraise his role.
People have described Jonathan as weak and undecided on a lot of issues. How has it been like working with such a person?
I must say it is a great thing of joy to try and understand the man, Goodluck Jonathan. People think he is weak; unfortunately when they look at the era of Obasanjo, they see the extreme difference between the two. Some of us in this administration prefer to see President Jonathan serve this country as President, not Commander-in-Chief; though he is also the Commander-in-Chief. In one of my discussions with him, I said: Mr. President, let us not apply the Commander-in-Chief in your service to this country, except when it is necessary because Obasanjo, in my own opinion, governed throughout as Commander-in-Chief. So, Nigerians are seeing a President who has so much power, yet he’s consulting on everything, on every issue and setting up committees to look into issues; hence they say he’s weak. He is not weak! I invited former President Jerry Rawlings as guest of honour at my endowment lecture series at UNIZIK where I endowed a chair in honour of the great Dr. Nnamdi Azikiwe. When he came, part of what he said was that people should not see Jonathan as weak; that in fact it was that quality of Jonathan that should be supported by democrats to stabilise the democratic institutions of this country. That’s somebody whose history we also know; somebody whose radical views we respect. So, people who hold that view, unfortunately, are not correct. Let us be honest with ourselves; President Jonathan is not a typical Nigerian politician. Atypical Nigerian politician is the man who says he wants to do 10 things in 10 minutes and ends up not doing even one. That’s the kind of politicians we have in Nigeria. Jonathan is not that kind of politician. I tell him often: you are not a typical Nigerian politician, just keep to it; let the Nigerian political terrain not come and pollute you. Here is somebody who came quietly from the academia to join the government of Diepreye Alamieyeseigha. Circumstances moved him in quick succession to becoming President within 10 years. I think we now need to collaborate with Mr. President. He is not opposed to criticisms. But we expect that criticisms should be quite objective. That’s why again and again, he subjects himself to media chat where he tries to explain certain things. Don’t forget he is not a saint. If you are looking for a saint, you’ll probably go to the Vatican. I don’t even think you have saints there again. As human beings, we all make mistakes.
Again, despite what you are saying, el-Rufai in his book describes Jonathan as incompetent and incapable of governing Nigeria. What do you make of that?
Look Sam, El-Rufai was Minister of the Federal Capital Territory (FCT); and in the last National Assembly, the Senate Committee on FCT led by Senator Sodangi from Nasarawa State, held some public hearing on the activities of the FCT, and the committee reached certain decisions as a result of the public hearing. If I were el-Rufai, I would quietly say to myself: there is time for everything under the sun. For him to say this man is incompetent, el-Rufai does not enjoy such moral standing to make such a statement against President Goodluck Jonathan. I can tell you that.
People have said the emergence of All peoples Congress (APC), the mega party is a threat to PDP.
I’m indeed pleased that opposition parties are coming together to form a solid bloc to challenge the PDP. As somebody well grounded in party management, I think it’s a very good development. Yes, they will challenge PDP. These are parties that control some state governments. So it is expected that when they come together, they will make an impact. And it is good for our politics that they come together so that PDP itself will sit up. I am a member of the PDP. I want PDP to sit up. I want PDP to get up and do a few things, like building its internal democracy. You can see that the national chairman is now moving about going from zone to zone energising the party because he has seen that there is fire on the mountain. Look, I am one of the promoters of a two-party system. I have said it over time. So, if I see a situation is coming to that, I’m all for it. But what I do not like is when I see my friends in the APC saying that the PDP is trying to scuttle them. The PDP has no interest whatsoever in doing that. As Special Adviser to the President on Inter-party Affairs, I think I should know if that is happening at all.
But it is assumed that the other APC is a product of PDP and fingers are being pointed at your direction as the architect of that abnormality.
That’s completely unfounded. There is no fact at all in that. I can tell you, Mr. President has no interest whatsoever in all of this. The other day, I was the one briefing him that the APC thing was going on well. He just replied: very good, I wish them well. He has no interest in that at all. It has not even crossed his mind. If Mr. President has anything at all to do with APC, I think I should know by virtue of my designation. I, as a person, wish them well. They have done some good work in going that far. But again, as a good manager of political parties – because I’ve held positions in political parties, I’ve been national secretary of political parties three times in this country, I’ve been involved in founding three political parties – I should know how to go about these things; not necessarily on the pages of newspapers. That was where they got it wrong. If I was in that project, I would apply, put in my papers for the registration of APC before coming to the public domain. So it’s a case of different strokes for different folks.
This is a coming together of progressives. It has never worked in this country. What’s the difference now?
I’m also conscious of the fact that the main parties – ACN, All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP) and Congress for Progressive Change (CPC) – have put, as chairmen of the merger committees, men who are serious-minded. In fact, it is for the activities of the three chairmen, for their steadfastness and focus that one can say they were able to achieve in quick time some of these understandings that have finally led to the merger we are talking about. I have had opportunities of working with them in one way or another, so I know they are serious-minded people. So, I think if they continue the way they are doing, particularly making sure that personal interest is not the issue, they will go far. I have been involved in it before, so I know that there is always a thin line between succeeding in the merger arrangements and then throwing it over board.
Truthfully, who owns the second APC; is it PDP?
Look, at times, it is good to rush to the media; at other times, it backfires. The gentleman behind APC, I don’t even know him politically. But now we are forced to know that he exists (laughter). I believe that in some of these things, we have to be a bit tactical and strategic in our approach.
What necessitated the emergence of PDP Governors, Forum?
I know that all the political parties that have governance in place have a forum. So, I do not see why that of PDP has become an issue. But you know that when you are an octopus, people are bound to read meanings into anything you do.
PDP Governors Forum surfaced at a time the leadership of the Nigerian Governors’ Forum (NGF) was in disagreement with the President and the PDP.
Look, there have always been disagreements between the governors’ forum and Presidents. We saw it during Obasanjo’s time, and even during the late Yar’Adua’s time. We are seeing it now. But at all times, they ended up finally having an understanding. You know in this business of politicking, it is always give and take. And that’s the only way we can move ahead. There must be consensus.
Is the PDP divided because of this?
PDP is not divided. You can see the enthusiasm in the leadership and membership of the PDP, as the national chairman and his team move around zone by zone. You can see how people turn out to come and be identified with the party.
NGF has been described as a threat to party supremacy. Is it true?
What I can say is that we need to build our political parties. And when you build the political parties, they become supreme. The governors are not above the leadership of the parties. In every political party that I know of, the party is on top at all times because it is the party that provides for you the platform to become governor, President, senator or a member of the House. So you cannot be above the party. But it is the lack of internal discipline in the parties that has created the situation we find ourselves today.
You are Jonathan’s political architect for now. What’s happening in 2015?
But the President has said something. He said he will not say anything about 2015 until 2014.
What’s the difference between that and saying nothing?
At least he has said something; though the opposition parties have been trying to drag him into the political terrain, even in 2013. We are still saying: Mr. President, you said 2014, let’s just concentrate. Let’s just see what we can deliver to the Nigerian people.
Let’s assume he agrees to contest, which his body language clearly suggests; how do you measure his chances?
I have already told you about a few actions of the President that are quite commendable. I want people to always judge President Goodluck Jonathan from his utterances. He said that he would bring good tidings to them in 2013. We are just in the third month of the year. I believe that we are going to see more deliverables come the way of Nigerians. And when that is done, his achievements and accomplishments will speak for him. That is my position.
In the past, we used to see some kind of political alignment between the North and the South East. Presently, something is happening between the North and the South West. What is this all about?
They have seen the future and fortune of the Igbo man tied to President Goodluck Jonathan. So they believe that for now it is better to discuss North to the West, West to the North. I don’t fault them. It’s all political calculations. But I believe that the situation and the setting today provides for President Jonathan who has the constitutional right to seek re-election at the appropriate time. He belongs to the ruling party. The party will also give him due consideration if he decides to run.
Was it necessary for President Jonathan to request state pardon for Diepreye Solomon Peter Alamieyeseigha?
Look, the Council of State in its composition has former Presidents, former Chief Justices of the Federation, and serving governors, among other very crucial decision-makers.
If a combination of these great Nigerians feels that there is need to grant pardon to a certain group of people, I do not think that I will be in a right position to say no. Yes, people are specifically talking about DSP Alamieyeseigha. The point is, Alams, as you’ve heard, having been found guilty of corruption and has completed his sentence, has been let out ever since. And he has helped in bringing peace and tranquility to the Niger Delta people. He took interest in ensuring that his people do not become obstacles on the path of governance by sabotaging or destroying the pipelines, as it used to be the case. He gave himself an assignment. I think this is a part of the service that people saw and said: yes, this man has sinned and has been punished. Look at the role he is now playing. We want other people to play that kind of role across the country. We want people who can go out and speak to Boko Haram, if you know them. Look at what Boko Haram has done to the economy of the North. We have degenerated to a level of bombing bus parks. So we need people who will come out also to be goodwill ambassadors, people who are respected back home, to come out and plead with their people to have some understanding and change their lifestyles. Maybe that is one of the reasons people saw and said: let him have the pardon. I think we should just put that behind us and move on.
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